An Interview with Jane Manning Judith Fried

Jane Manning has been working in Los Angeles in the field of dance/movement therapy for thirty-five years. As a teacher, as a therapist, and as a trainer and supervisor of therapists, she has had a lasting impact on all of those fortunate enough to know her work. I met Manning first in the slimmer of 1957 in the play yard at the nursery school attended by my children. At that time she was a teacher at the school and, in addition, she worked weekly with all the age groups in movement, in the way that only she seemed able to do. She was a tall, elegant, red-haired woman of singular beauty. Then, as now, she spoke in measured tones, often with pauses, even silences, between sentences. Then, too, she had a ready laugh and a look of merry spirits. Over the years since then she has been my teacher, mentor, colleague and friend. I was pleased and honored to be asked to do this interview.

JF: Let's start with the earliest influences on your work, the influences from your childhood JM: As I look b a c k n o w on t h e influences, I t h i n k I m i g h t h a v e b e e n f o r t u n a t e e n o u g h to e x p e r i e n c e d a n c e t h e r a p y m y s e l f in a w a y . I w a s v e r y i l l - I t h i n k I m u s t h a v e b e e n 5 or 6 - a n d t h e doctor a s k e d m y m o t h e r w h a t I liked to do a n d m y m o t h e r said, "She likes to dance". A n d t h e doctor said, '~Then, let h e r dance!". American Journal of Dance Therapy Vol. 17, No. 1, Spring/Summer 1995

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© 1995 American Dance Therapy Association

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Jane Manning

JF:

Did you start lessons?

J M : No, not at t h a t time. I was very limber, very flexible, and my older sister helped me to do acrobatic dancing. I could do back-bends and frontovers and back-overs and walk on my hands! Probably I started tapdancing and some ballet when I was 7, in Newton, Kansas where we lived. And t h e n when we moved to Wichita there was more ballet and I also learned to do some tight-wire! I could go all the way across. The wire was only 3 feet high but I could gQ all the way across ( l a u g h s ) - w i t h an .umbrella! J F : Did you start to perform then?

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JM: Yes. I performed in many, many little towns in Kansas. It was against the rules, the child labor laws, to be paid, and I remember once I was allowed to choose between getting candy or flowers and I remember I chose flowers! Then we moved to California. I entered a "Better Baby Talent Contest" and won a scholarship to study more ballet and more acrobatic. When I was in high school I had the opportunity to travel with a vaudeville show. My mother and dad gave me permission to go on the road ff I promised to finish high school when I came back. So that's what I did. We traveled from California to Canada and through all the states performing in theaters. I was in the chorus, did a duet with another woman, and did an acrobatic dancing solo. And when the tour was over, I came home to finish high school. It was war time then and I entertained for the USO, for the Red Cross, in hospital wards, at Army and N a v y b a s e s . . , and when the war was over and ships started coming home, we entertained aboard ships. (Pause) And then it was time to look for something more permanent.

JF:

You didn't consider dancing permanent?

J M : No. I didn't have the kind of aggressiveness to pursue a career in dancing. I loved dancing and when the opportunities came easily, I was there. But I didn't have t h e - t h e (laughs) chutzpah to elbow myself into a career. I had always had a feeling for young children and decided to pursue that. I answered a newspaper ad for a nursery school teacher and got the job. This was at the Assistance League Day Nursery. I immediately started to take early childhood development classes and classes in children's literature and nutrition for c h i l d r e n - a n d classes in psychology. I had been at that nursery school for five years when one of the social workers told me about the teacher training at The School for N u r s e r y Years, a school founded by psychoanalysts and associated with the Los Angeles Psychoanalytic Institute. I applied for the training, was accepted, and after the training was asked to join the staff. Something else important was happening. At this time I was taking a dance class at UCLA with Alma Hawkins. The pianist who accompanied that class asked me if I had heard of Mary Whitehouse. I never had, b u t he said he thought I might enjoy working with her. I didn't know what he saw in me that he singled me out, but I took his advice and started working with Mary. At that time, Mary was using space in a wonderful big old house, and the group consisted of probably seven or eight p e o p l e - t h r e e men and the rest women. We worked with technique in every session and with improvisation. Mary taught the technique so that it was not competitive, where one person would try to outdo another person or where you would try to outdo y o u r s e l f - b u t so that you learned the technique in your own b o d y -

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so the technique, too, could become an expression of one's self, r a t h e r t h a n an imitative movement. JF:

What kind o f technique was it, Jane? Was it specific?

J M : The technique Mary used was influenced by her work with M a r t h a G r a h a m and Mary Wigman. Essentially we learned Graham technique. In improvisation, Mary was influenced by her work with J u n g i a n psychology. At times Mary would use imagery or suggestions for improvisation t h a t came from the body or movement itself. For instance, she m i g h t say, "Get your arms moving and don't let a n y t h i n g else move until you really feel what your arms are doing, and see how t h a t brings you across the floor". At another time she m i g h t say, ~Imagine yourself in a labyr i n t h and the m a n y passages t h a t are available, and how do you feel seeking a way out". J F : The first out of the dance background," the second out of the Jungian work.

JM: Yes. There was a mixture in her improvisatory work of the two. Mary did not comment on an improvisation when it was finished, but there was a seriousness to the work with Mary, always. (she smiles) JF:

Why do you smile, Jane?

JM: I am remembering one time when she gave us some direction and I came to a certain stance and burst out laughing, because whatever it was I had done made me feel like woman astronaut, and that's w h a t I s a i d . . . (she g i g g l e s ) . . . (but does not continue). JF:

You were more playful in your work?

JM:

I t h i n k so.

J F : Tell me, Jane, when did you begin to work in movement with chip dren? J M : Since I was teaching nursery school and there was not at t h a t time any creative movement offered to the children, I asked ff I could work with the children, and t h a t was acceptable. I used my knowledge of early childhood development, plus the way I was working with Mary, and devised a way of working t h a t was highly successful. I soon b e g a n - t h e r e was time made so t h a t I could work every week with all four groups at the school, and m y work began to branch out. I started individual groups t h a t

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met in the afternoons after s c h o o l . . , and that was the beginning of my work with children. J F : A n d when did you and Mary begin your studio together? How did that come about? JM: (Smiling) Mary and I were taking a steam bath at a sauna and Mary turned to me and said, "Jane, why don't we have a studio together? You can work with children and I can work with adults". And I, in my optimistic w a y said, ~'Why not!". (laughs)

J F : When you began your studio together-you with children, Mary with adults-did you think of yourself as doing dance therapy? JM: (pauses and then laughs) That is a big fat question. Let me go back to say that when Mary and I opened the studio I worked with pre-school children up through the teen-aged population. And I did not think of my work as dance therapy, per se. It was not dance, per se, either. It was a w a y in which the children and young people could learn about themselves through movement. And I think that is c e r t a i n l y - c o u l d be at l e a s t - a partial definition of any therapeutic p r o c e s s - t h a t you learn about yourself.

JF: When did you begin to think about your work as therapy? JM: (pauses) Through many discussions with Mary, questions about what it was we were doing here. At one point Mary had a workshop group that consisted of five people who had worked with her, and I was in that group. We did demonstrations for the public illustrating Mary's approach to dance/movement. We, the group members, sat around and said, '~What shall we call it?" At UCLA it was called "Psychodance"! That was the title that was chosen. We did demonstrations, too, at the C.G. J u n g Club in Los Angeles and for the J u n g Club in New York and at Long Beach State...

JF:

Did you even know about the field of dance therapy at that time?

JM: No. But letters came when the American Dance Therapy Association was being organized, in 1965. I had given birth to our daughter in 1965 and I thought, '~I can't be bothered with this organization!". And so I never filled out the initial letter. Mary did and became a charter member.

JF:

That was the beginning of your knowing that there was such a field?

JM:

Yes, that it had a title.

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J F : Did that change the way you thought about your work? JM:

I don't think so.

JF:

When did you start to work with adults as well as children?

J M : There was a group of women, people who wanted to work with Mary, and for whatever reason, Mary did not work with them and asked me if I would take the group. So, with Mary's supervision, I started to work with adults. JF:

Did your work with children influence your work with adults?

J M : Very much so. I have been asked before what is my modus operandi. I use a developmental model. The importance of movement for a child is evident. One knows when a child has learned to skip because the child skips everywhere! The whole mastery of m o v e m e n t - l e a r n i n g to sit, to stand, to w a l k - i s not only crucial to the physical development of the child, but to the feeling the child has for himself, for herself. I think that important connection to movement is never lost. It gets sabotaged. And then society steps in and makes all kinds of requirements for us. We have to look a certain way. We have to move a certain way. If we're in a dance c l a s s - a regular, ordinary dance c l a s s - i t can be very damaging for some people who can't do a complicated progression across the floor, and then decide they can never dance again. J F : There is an implication in what your are saying, Jane, that you think of dance-aside from dance t h e r a p y - t h a t you think of dance as therapeutic in itself. Is that accurate? J M : I think that's a c c u r a t e - t h a t if one can get back to that place where the exploration of movement was so important to the c h i l d - t h a t has a healing effect. In the early days, people were sent to work with me by their verbal therapists. They would have expressed a desire to dance, or totd of a dream of dancing, and the therapist helped them to pursue these desires and sent them to a safe place to work. J F : Are you saying that for an adult, dance is analogous to the movement in childhood of learning to si~ to stand, to w a l k ? . . . That dance is in some way the same expression for the adult? J M : I think if we use dance m o v e m e n t - I think it reinforces the feeling of "can do" for a person. And I think that what is gained from the dance

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movement experience does not stay behind in the s t u d i o - b u t walks out with the person! J F : A t this time when you had the studio with Mary, did you continue to work at the nursery school? J M : Yes, I worked in movement with all the groups at school. And I was asked to join the staff of Julie Ann Singer, a school connected with Cedars Sinai Hospital, a school for disturbed children. And I worked at the Child Guidance Clinic at another hospital. J F : So you began to work with children who were identified as having problems. A n d did you think of your work, then, more specifically as therapy? J M : I think so, because of the nature of the places I was working. And because my work had this a s p e c t - t h a t was the reason I was asked to work with these populations. And by that time I would identify what I was doing as therapy. J F : Were you doing hospital or clinic work with adults, as well? In addition to the studio work? J M : Yes. I was asked to join the staff of the Veteran's Medical Center, where I worked with a variety of g r o u p s . . . I worked with a geriatric group that had minor disabilities; with a "life skills" group of Viet N a m veterans; and with a medication-check group. The Viet N a m vets had been hospitalized because of severe disturbances and now were in a program in which to learn to live outside the h o s p i t a l . . , by giving them skills in, for example, how to go to the bank or to the market. Before each session I would talk to the psychologist and the O.T. person to find out what they were working on that week. First we would do some simple kinds of stretches, which was analogous to technique in that I repeated the same stretches each week before we began the improvisation. If they were working on "going to the bank", I might suggest they imagine going up to a teller and how would that f e e l - a n d they would put their feelings into m o v e m e n t - s o m e t i m e s it would be fearful, sometimes they would make fun of it and the group would laugh. If anything unusual came up they could talk about it with me and the psychologist who was present, too. I am reminded of an incident. One day when I came, Sally, the O.T., told me something wonderful had happened. One of the vets who had been very reticent, and would only answer in one word replies to any question and didn't volunteer anything, had come to the group the day after I was

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there and was full of talk about things that had happened to him, things he did. They inquired what had made this sudden change and he said, ~Well, it was working with Jane. I laughed. And it was the first time I had laughed in months." I am in full support of Norman Cousins-that laughter is a healing experience-that it is part of life. And that for therapy to be therapy it does not have to be deadly serious. JF: Talking about laughter, Jane, makes me think of play. You haven't talked about the word ~play". JM: Play for the child, imaginative play, is instructive. The child is involved with his or her imagination, certainly with his or her body in interaction with others and it offers a personal way of l e a r n i n g - w h a t is real, what is unreal, what is dependable, what is not dependable. JF: A n d does this translate for the adult? JM: It translates in much the same way. The adult needs to be guided back-helped to rediscover that fantasy offers delight, amusement, that it engenders trust in oneself. JF:

You are suggesting, Jane, that we as adults don't know how to play?

JM: Yes. It is my intent to make that suggestion. Life is not easy. There are many problems that cannot be solved. And I think there is a tendency to take that as the whole of life. We have, in a way, given up unprescribed play. Play has also become hard. We play to win. We play routinely. The play does not involve fantasy or imagination. JF: So in your work with adults you try to restore a sense o f play. JM: I would say it is one aspect of my work. If you look at other kinds of dancing-folk or tap d a n c i n g - t h e r e is a real sense of playfulness. However, both of those forms require prescribed steps. In spontaneous, improvisational play, the origination of the movement comes from the individual. JF: Let's go back to the other groups at the VA, Jane. JM" The geriatric group was made up of World War I vets who came with their wives or the women they lived with. They were people having some difficulty in addition to some minor physical disability. Again we had a series of stretches we repeated each time, and I would ask the participants to give us a way to move-something that would come from

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t h e m - a n d the group would pick up their movement. If there were specific issues that came up, I would use improvisation that would address those issues, so that whatever happened could be addressed in movement. The medication-check group was a little different. These were people on psychotropic drugs who needed to come to the hospital to have their medication levels checked. The dance therapy was essentially to give these people some form of activity, to make possible some kind of contact between the people, rather than have t h e m come and look at a four yearold magazine, and be isolated until they were called by the doctor. Some came every week, some only monthly. The groups always varied b u t we met every week. We would always begin with stretches to get people moving, again the familiar, the known. And then it was essentially r e c r e a t i o n a l - t o stimulate activity and, thereby, i n t e r a c t i o n - t o have a good time! The men and women in this group were from World War II, the Korean War, the Viet N a m War. Sometimes we would use something as simple as ~find different ways of walking". JF: JM:

Again, a playful quality. Absolutely.

J F : Jane, talk about the ways in which the studio work and the hospital work were the same and the ways in which they were not the same. J M : I think one way in which they were the same was that I always started from the same place. In the studio with the dance technique, in the hospital with simple stretches, as I have said. The groups would become familiar and know that I would begin in that way. This offers a form, an expected form, which is comforting for a population that may experience formlessness as chaos. It is also appropriate for people in the studio. It takes into consideration the group with which you are working. I might have a nifty idea while I am driving to work with a group, b u t the members come with an expectation of what is known and familiar to them. I have the responsibility not to go off on my own creative tangent and experimental idea, but to keep the safety of the group intact. JF: So in all your groups you begin with the ritual of the known form~ JM:

That is exactly true.

J F : A n d the improvisatory work?How were the two settings different and how the same? J M : In the life-skills group, as I told you, the improvisatory suggestions were geared to what the group had been working with, so that it was

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fairly safe. For the geriatric group, I had to take movement availability into consideration, as well as any material that came up for discussion. The material used came essentially from the group itself. The same was true in the studio, but with a difference. In the studio, groups worked for a longer time as a cohesive group and trust developed not only between group members and myself, but between the group members. Sometimes improvisation might have to do with, for example, a challenge of balancing one's self, of working with another in balancing and counterbalancing, perhaps even taking that into three's. It was a direction that used a physical component, but which for m a n y p e o p l e - f o r all of u s - h a d psychological meaning. That is: how well balanced are we? JF"

Movement as a metaphor.

J M : Yes. And I found this to be very useful in my work. Partly because it allows for the individual's own response to that metaphor. Each of us responds to a given direction a little differently, so it is rich with possibilities for individual interpretation. J F : So that the group members would, in a sense, each be working individually, even as they worked in the group. J M : Yes. Directions were given as a springboard for movement. And within that kind of allowing for individual r e s p o n s e - I think that is where the strength of the client is encouraged. J F : Give an example o f a metaphor, Jane, from which you might see different interpretations. J M : I might give the instruction that you find yourself in an u n k n o w n place. That unknown place for one person might be that they are taking a trip to another country where they have not been before. For another person it might be that they are planning to marry, for another it might be divorce. It might be recalling an actual situation of being l o s t - o r of feeling l o s t - a l l of these are possible from one simple direction. It might be, then, t h a t in the group one person might become aware of another's anxiety and come to comfort or explore with the anxious person, who m a y or may not want to be comforted. If a person's offer of help is rejected, it does not mean the person is rejected. All of this takes time. JF:

So you worked in your studio over long periods o f time.

J M : Yes, the groups stayed together five, six, seven years. You know, Judith, your group worked together for ten years!

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J F : That's righ~ we d i d What other aspects of the work were related to the time factor? J M : As trust built in the group, members came with their own needs t h a t needed to be expressed. They might tell me they wanted to work on something particular, and if the group was willing, everyone would work on t h a t problem with the person. J F : A s in a verbal psychotherapy group in which the members feel free to work on their own issues. J M : Yes, but the work was always in movement. If after a session someone wanted to speak with me, I was available. I did not encourage or provoke talking, because I felt t h a t to take away the experience in movement was important. This I had learned from Mary. JF: In this way you differ from other dance~movement therapists who include verbal processing. You have a different attitude in this way. J M : I do, obviously, have a different attitude. I t h i n k t h a t I trust the movement experience. I trust what can be learned and gained from the movement itself. Verbalization has a priority in this society, and I t h i n k t h a t priority dilutes the real learning t h a t takes place in the body, with movement. JF:

So you have elected to eschew verbalization in your work.

J M : Yes. Not to say t h a t it doesn't have value, but t h a t I never wanted it to have primary value in my work. I t h i n k t h a t each of us is drawn to whatever works for personal r e a s o n s - a n d I am more comfortable with movement t h a n I am with words! JF:

Did this apply, as well, to your work with children?

J M : To some extent, yes. However, I always wanted to know when I gave an instruction to children if it was understood. For instance, if I would say, "Imagine t h a t you have a secret", I would ask, "What is a secret?". I remember an answer from one little girl t h a t is really wonderful. She said, "A secret is something you tell one person at a time"! (laughs) JF: So there was more talking with childrer~ J M : Yes, but once they began to respond in movement, t h a t was their own and was accepted. I have to interject here t h a t the initial response

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was always a c c e p t e d - b u t if the movement response was totally inappropriate, then I would have to ask myself, to consider, did the child understand? And if so, then I would consider what is going on with this child. I would observe the gap between what was said and what the response was. And I would be alert to the next time the instruction was given, and I might decide that I should work with this child individually. JF:

You were using this way of working as a diagnostic tool.

J M : Yes, whenever you are working from a background in child development, you a u t o m a t i c a l l y - w e l l it seems a u t o m a t i c - t o be aware in this way. And you know if the child is developmentally appropriate. JF:

Jane, how does your work differ from play therapy?

J M : Rather t h a n having toys and objects at the child's disposal, we use imagery and space and instruments and music. I was able, fortunately, to have a pianist who followed the children's m o v e m e n t - t h e music supported their movement or their particular rhythm. Or if I gave an image to the whole group, she always created appropriate music. JF:

You were lucky.

J M : Yes. (laughs) Very lucky! Oh! I just thought of an example of a child I took from group to work with individually. When her mother first brought her to the group, the child was crying and hanging from her mother's coat lapels, her feet off the floor. Her mother ignored her feeling and put her down and told her she would be back when the session was over. Then this little girl sat next to another little girl and said, "You can't come to m y house". There had been no talk of going to anyone's h o u s e - i t was a provocative thing to say. So I picked up this clue and asked the mother if we could work privately. One day the little girl came in and said, ~I'm not going to do anything today". And I said, "Fine. Could you just play the drum for me while I dance", knowing that a child cannot resist a drum. Then I said, "I'm going to do an angry dance", and I jumped and shook m y fists and lay on my back and kicked my feet, and when I was finished, she said, "Let me do that". And she walked around the studio saying, ~'No. NO. NO". And the session was over, and the next time she came she asked if we could do the angry dance again. I myself was working analytically at this time, and told m y analyst about the little girl and said I wished she could be in therapy. And my analyst said, "I don't think you have to be worried" about that. I think the therapy is in the doing it".

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J F : That is a wonderful story, Jane. You heard from your own analyst that you were doing therapy. Were you surprised? J M : No, b u t she encouraged me to take responsibility for that, for naming it therapy. J F : I wanted to ask you, Jane, and maybe now is a good time. Has your work changed over time? J M : I would say it has developed rather than changed. I learned from the groups I worked with and from the different populations. I became more assured that what I was doing was truly a form of therapy and had therapeutic value for the clients with whom I worked. J F : What characteristics do you think are important for the dance/ movement therapist, Jane? J M : First and foremost the dance/movement therapist must know where she (or he, of course) is in her own body. That is one of the purposes technique s e r v e s - t o help define one's body for one's s e l f - a n d by that I mean the outline, the strength, the flexibility, the possibilities, the limitations; to know the critic in oneself, to become as comfortable as one can with one's body and its movement. Many of us, of course, come to dance therapy from a background in dance. And it is, I think, necessary to give up the image of the dancer. For instance, there is a dancerly walk in which the toes come to the floor first. You see it in nearly every ballet. It is controlled, it has a kind of g r a c e - and grace is highly respected, clumsiness is n o t - a l t h o u g h clumsiness is another w a y of being in one's body. To bring that dancerly attitude to a group of people who are often disconnected from their own movement and highly critical of the w a y they move, or of the w a y they feel moving, I believe it is damaging for the therapist then to get up and move in a trained, dancerly way. And I think the dance therapist must work in his or her own therapy to make sure not to be solving her own problems in the group. Of course, there need to be courses in psychology, hopefully child development, some a n a t o m y - a n d to figure out, out of one's study, one's way of working, one's own philosophy. Where does one's work spring from that one feels good about, secure in, so that the security is translatable and available in one's work with different populations. It is another way of saying that there needs to be a kind of inner confidence that makes the individual or the group you're working with more comfortable and secure. The analyst l~alph Greenson said that there might be two nervous people when a patient first comes, but only one of t h e m can show it!

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I think, too, that it is important not to assume a kind of '~ivory tower" prospective to the work. And by t h a t I mean, we are all affected by common and uncommon every day e v e n t s - o n the radio, on the T V - t h e great wonders and tragedies that happen. These affect us. They bombard our psyches. So we must have a humanness in our work and know that what has affected us has affected the people we work with. JF:

The implication is that we m u s t be socially and politically alert.

J M : I think that is true. But sometimes there may be a tendency not to give full import to the things of life, the accidents and incidents. And the passages of life: the births, deaths, the transitions. JF:

I often have heard you use the word "transition; Jane.

J M : I have thought about it a lot. I noted that often moving with technique from one position to another position, the transition is thrown away, disregarded. Moving, too, from the floor to standing, for example, the transition is ignored. How you get from the floor to standing is very i m p o r t a n t - t h e innumerable changes happening in the body in order to accomplish that feat. Again, it is a metaphor for life, for what happens in life. Moving from the old place to the new place, that is the period of change. That is the unknown. That is when you learn. Sometimes things move so rapidly today, one can hardly k n o w - t h e time is so short between one place and another. But when you think of the pioneers who came across the country, they had time to deal with the journey, as it is sometimes called, the whole time of transition. So, in a way, we have to slow d o w n - t o know and take note of that complex phenomenon called change. And isn't that why a person comes to dance/movement therapy? To find something different and to be comfortable with the process of c h a n g e - t o deal with the fearfulness, the unknown, the anxiety that often accompanies change, and to meet t h a t - a n d to find that you are still whole and functioning, and something new has happened. J F : One often hears therapists say, "Let's p u t the dance back in dance therapy" Would you comment on that, Jane? J M : In the w a y that I work, I think I have kept the dance in dance therapy. T e c h n i q u e - w o r k i n g with technique-provides a connection with one's self and one's movement that then is taken into improvisation. So that as I look I can see the definition in bodies as they move, which is truly b e a u t i f u l - a s t o n i s h i n g l y beautiful sometimes. And I think that it can only be called one's own dance. This happens when people have,

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through the use of technique, defined for themselves their own range of movement. They have trust in their bodies and the way their bodies move and are comfortable with that, and can give expression in movement to a variety of feeling, of movement, of interaction. In looking, sometimes, it almost seems composed. JF:

What is your work at present, Jane?

J M : Now I have a limited practice. I work essentially with individuals. I have one small group. I am very much enjoying my free time. J F : From this vantage point, Jane, would you talk a bit about your life as a dance~movement therapist. J M : Well, I'll tell you. Sometimes I think of the words to the song, '~Life is a Cabaret, old chum". (laughs) I substitute, '~Life is an improvisation, old chum"! And mine has been a good one. I have, without thinking about it a lot, followed what has presented itself in my life. Naturally, I had the gift of movement, which we all have, and it has been a part o f - I have kept it a part of my life. And it has been rewarding. I'll tell you, Judith, I think I have been very lucky in my life. I've worked in a field that I enjoy. I've had the reward of being a guide in other people's lives. I've been able to earn a living at what I do. And I think those three things, together, combine to make me feel extremely fortunate.