Environmental Biology of Fishes 41: 63-65,1994. O 1994 Kluwer Academic Publishers. Printed in the Netherlands.

An interview with Ethelwynn Trewavas David L.G. Noakes Institute of Ichthyology and Department of Zoology, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario NlG 2W1, Canada

Ethelwynn Trewavas died at her home in Reading, England on 16 August 1993. On 19 February 1993 Ethelwynn answered a series of standardized questions prepared by Eugene Balon as the basis for his 'interview with Eugenie Clark' (pp. 121-125). The questionnaire had been delivered to Rosemary Lowe-McConnell by Mike Bruton, and Ro conducted the interview with ET at Ethelwynn's home at Calcot in Reading, England. Ro recorded the conversation, and later transcribed that tape and provided the notes to me. Subsequently ET added some further comments on some of the questions. EB = questions from Eugene Balon

ET = Ethelwynn Trewavas

EB: What is the most memorable event of your childhood? ET: In primary school one of the mistresses drew a lot of coloured pictures for each season on a large sheet of brown paper, illustrating things appropriate to the season, e.g. Jack Frost in winter, for other seasons Mother Nature in brown coat, and then there were pictures of flowers, trees, animals that were particularly active in each season; and the sun at its appropriate place for each season. EB: Who shaped your early career and especially your attitude to science, or who most affected your life and work? ET: As it went along I was always encouraged by the botany mistresses at school because I was interested. When I chose to do Natural History and Zoology at University, Dr. Nellie Eales and Prof. Cole were very encouraging and stimulating. EB: How did you come to specialise in research on fishes? ET: I first met Tate Regan when as a student I was advised to go to the Natural History Museum in South Kensington (London) to study the classification of fishes. While I was in the fish gallery studying this, Tate Regan, then Keeper of Zoology, later the

Director came along. He said, 'Are you still illustrating the water babies? Oh no, I see you are not.' So he became interested and took me into the back rooms and showed me the skeletons of some important fishes and talked about the classification of fishes. After graduating I had 2 or 3 years of school teaching before getting the opportunity to specialise in zoology again. This was given to me by Doris Croft and Phillipa Esdale at Kings College for Women in London. They got in touch with people at the Natural History Museum and Tate Regan suggested I should do a study on the frog to supplement what was known about the classification of the Anura which was then under discussion, especially by G.K. Noble and Melbrook in the US who had some new ideas about it. They suggested I should look at the hyoid. I found that the hyoid and larynx together formed a very interesting unit in the Anura and took that as my thesis using material from the Natural History Museum and working at Kings College for Women. So it was Tate Regan finding me in the fish gallery which led to this.

EB: You joined a male dominated profession, can you recall some relevant details? ET: I found no difficulty, or very little difficulty at any rate, in keeping my head above water among the males because we were all specialists.We all had something to give, I think that was it.

EB: Were there any unpleasant events which occurred as a female in competition with males? ET: No.

In a personal letter to me on 13 April 1993, Ethelwynn commented on the questionnaire (above) and offered some additional comments. Her letter is in part transcribed first, followed by her comments.

EB: Which were the most touching moments? Pincent's Hill House Calcot Reading RG2 5TU Tel. (0734) 302440

ET: I do not think we have 'touching' moments. . . I find every moment spent on zoological work if not touching at least exciting. EB: Did some papers you co-authored reflect more than a working relationship? ET: Every paper reflected, I hope, a very good working relationship. EB: Of your publications, which are your favourite paperstbooks? ET: The deep sea angler fishes, stomatoids, sciaenid fishes and the Cichlidae. What can one say?

EB: They contributed to human knowledge would you mind saying why?

.. .

ET: Yes I would! Every bit of research adds a little bit to human knowledge, otherwise it is not research. I always think we should not use the word 'research' in English - in French recherce is OK but we should use 'search'. Tate Regan always used to call it 'original work', which is better. EB: Did you ever dream about publishing a widely read, popular book, and if so what did you do about it? ET: I kept on dreaming. EB: Did you have contemplative ideas beyond ichthyology? Did you join any philosophical school? ET: No, but I did think quite a lot about it. EB: If you could rewind and replay tape of life . . . which part? ET: . . . all? EB: Would you like to edit or add some parts? ET: I would be content to stop and let somebody else do a better job. I think I ought to have related the specialjobs I did to wider issues. I thought about it a lot but very rarely put it into papers because I thought that was not the right place.

13 April 1993 Dear David, I have seen a copy of a questionnaire that Mike Bruton [sic] used for Genie Clark. The only part of it that I feel inclined to deal with is on male competition I enclose a note on this because I think I came into the arena at a favourable time from thispoint of view and it is only fair to makea note of it. Please excuse a handwritten note. If you use it could you let me have a copy of your paraphrases. Best wishes to you and Dr. Balon. Yours, Ethelwynn Trewavas

Male competition I was never conscious of this as such. My first post at the Museum was not on the Established staff. I replaced a man who had assisted the previous Director, mainly on the Exhibition side. When he retired the Director (C. Tate Regan) wanted to continue his researches. He had been involved in suggesting the topics on which Daphne Aubartin and I were working at a college near the Museum. He was kept in touch with our progress and obtained the Trustees' permission to offer the post to me as Research Assistant to the Director. Soon after my appointment there were three vacancies on the Established staff of the Museum. I did not apply but all these vacancies were filled by women in a competitive situation. They were Anna Hastings (Bryozoa), Daphne Aubartin (Entomology), and Susan Finnegan (Arachnida). Dr. Regan told me that the members of the interviewing panel had agreed that they all exceeded in calibre the men who applied at the same time. This was the first time that the higher Civil Service, including the ScientificCivil Service, was open to women. During the 7 years that I held the Research Assistantship I did seriously consider apply-

ing for at least one permanent job elsewhere, but nowhere else could offer the same research facilities - great historic collections, a great library and no distractions such as teaching or exhibitions (both of which in themselves would be absorbing) and as I had no family commitments, I waited. Eventually a vacancy arose in the Fish Section. I applied and although over-age for entry, I was successful, thanks I believe to the selection by Dr. Calamn, then Keeper of the Department of Zoology, who knew my work. I do not know who was competing for the post at that time. 1 had the impression that, in that situation, Tate Regan kept a low profile so that I should not seem to be benefiting from favouritism. Meanwhile, other women had been appointed to the Museum establishment as scientists in various

departments. Some of them were lost upon marriage -perhaps voluntarily but the marriage bar was not removed until after World War Two. When I was seconded to the Fishery Survey of Lake Nyasa in 1939, I thought it was because I had done a lot of work on African freshwater fishes. But someone told me afterwards that if J.R. Norman's health had not forbidden it he would have been chosen -whether for his sex or seniority I don't know.

D o I dream of writing a popular book? I believe I have no talent for this. But I like to feel that I am supplying reliable data for those who have.